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Episode #61: ‘The History & Future of Energy as an Economic Driving Force' with author Carey King of University of Texas at Austin [an Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast]

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The ‘Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast’ features conversations with thought leaders in the utility sector. Each two weeks we’ll connect with an Energy Central Power Industry Network...

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  • Nov 23, 2021
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Modern history really got kicked into full gear with the advent of the Industrial Revolution, which can be boiled down to the way that society was able to transform and rapidly evolve once we were able to extract work efficiently and effectively from various energy sources. From coal-powered factories to steamboats to the eventual rise of electricity, the availability of energy allowed humanity to prosper and grow in ways it was never previously able to do. In many ways, the tight correlation between access to energy and economic development has continued to be coupled in lockstep in the centuries since, and the future of the global economy still relies directly on the future energy systems that we’re building today and tomorrow.

This fascinating topic holds immense impact to the future of utilities and society at large, so podcast host Jason Price and producer Matt Chester felt it a bountiful topic to explore. But like much of the Energy Central Community, they are energy wonks rather than economics experts, so the best way to do this was indeed to bring into the podcast booth one of the foremost researchers on this intersection of energy and the economy. Carey King is a research scientist and Assistant Director of the Energy Institute at the University of Texas at Austin, and last Fall he also published the groundbreaking book on this very topic: “The Economic Superorganism: Beyond the Competing Narratives on Energy, Growth, and Policy.” Through his time as a researcher and in digging deeper into the topic for this book, Carey has unearthed some of the important lessons that can be learned as energy unlocked new economic development in the 1700s and what that means for relevant energy strategy and public policy in the decades in front of us.

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Thanks to the sponsors of this episode of the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast: West MonroeEsriAnterix, and ScottMadden

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TRANSCRIPT

Jason Price: 

Hello and welcome to Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast, where we go straight to the source covering challenging topics impacting the energy and utility industry. My name is Jason Price of West Monroe. And I'm coming to you from New York City. Joining me as always based in Orlando, Florida as Energy Centrals, community manager and podcast producer, Matt Chester. Today, we're going to explore the crossroads of economics and energy and joining us is the author, scientist and leading intellectual in enhancing our combined energy and economic thinking. He is a leader in what is known as biophysical economics and ecological economics, the fields that incorporate physical principles into how we think about and model the economy. Matt, a million years ago, I majored in economics. What's your level of comfort in this subject? And more importantly, I hope there's no quiz at the end of this discussion.

Matt Chester:
Well, Jason, I never went beyond 101 level classes. So I'm eager to just sit back and be a student once again for this episode.

Jason Price: 
Well, hopefully our guest will be able to give us a crash course and be easy on the final grade. So let's get started. We discuss on the show, the complexity of our energy system from the vastness of the system to its modernization and transformation to 21st century issues. Rarely do we dig into the economics underpinning the system, remarkably economic forces play out on a minute by minute basis from the generation to the ISO, to the distribution, with demand response and time of use and price signals are happening throughout the journey. You don't have to look any further than some of the largest energy stories of this year.

Jason Price: 
Have we turned a corner with COVID and the end of the moratoriums, the ever increasing energy burden for so many sectors of the economy? What about the unprecedented spike of power prices in ERCOT amid the Texas winter storm this past February where the billions of dollars being earmarked for various energy transformations in the infrastructure bill, just to name a few. Before we bring our next guest into the podcast booth to talk about this further, let's recognize our generous sponsors who help make each episode of power perspectives possible.

Jason Price: 
To West Monroe. West Monroe works with the nation's largest electric, gas and water utilities and telecommunication grid modernization and digital and workforce transformations. West Monroe brings a multidisciplinary team that blends utility, operations and technology expertise to address modernizing infrastructure, advisory on transportation electrification, ADMS deployments, data and analytics and cybersecurity. To Esri, Esri is an international supplier of geographic information, GIS software, web GIS and geo database management applications. To Guidehouse formerly Navigate Research, a premier market research and advisory firm covering the global energy transformation. To Anterix, Anterix focuses on delivering transformative broadband that enables the modernization of critical infrastructure for the energy, transportation, logistics and other sectors of our economy. And to ScottMadden, a management consulting firm, serving clients across the energy utility ecosystem, areas of focus include transmission and distribution, the grid edge, generation, energy markets, rates and regulations, corporate sustainability and corporate services. The firm helps clients develop and implement strategies, improve critical operations, reorganize the partner and entire companies and implement myriad initiatives.

Jason Price: 
And now on today's guest, joining us today is Carey King Carey is a research scientist and the assistant director of the Energy Institute at the University of Texas at Austin. Carey is the author of the book, The Economic Super Organism: Beyond the Competing Narrative on Energy, Growth and Policy, which was published last fall. In this much need to dive into the intersection of economics and energy, Carey writes to the energy audience about all the economic concepts they must be missing or overlooking in their attempt to make the energy industry operate in the way they want.

Jason Price: 
Whether that's toward a clean energy transition, enhancing reliability or ensuring affordability for the customer. He points out that since the oil crisis of the 1970s, that we've too often overlooked the ways in which energy directly drives the economy and as a result, social outcomes. With this fascinating look back at the history of the energy industry, Carey makes some important points about how we should be treating the power sector moving forward, points that we're excited to ask him about today. So without further ado, let's bring him in. Carey King, welcome to the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast.

Carey King:
Thank you, Jason. Welcome to be here.

Jason Price: 
Carey, let's get started. We want to make sure our listeners who haven't yet read your book are up to speed before diving into the conversation. So give us a bit of a cliff notes if you will, on the main points in your book and I'm also curious if you can speak to why you felt this was an important book to write.

Carey King:
The book is really a relatively long term perspective on the economy of, on the order of couple hundred years or trying to understand industrialization and the fundamental role of energy and how we've come to the economy we have from a biomass renewable economy. So it's really about looking about the forest of the economy instead of just looking at the trees or the parts of the economy and understanding how they work together. The book is organized around what I call the energy and economic narratives as in the subtitle of the book, overcoming these narratives and the energy narratives are straw men but just extreme cases such as promoting fossil fuel and saying renewable energy is bad or on the other side of the energy narrative saying, renewable energy is great and maybe fossil energy is bad.

Carey King:
So those are the endpoints of the energy narratives. There's also to understand why people say what they say with regard to fossil energy and renewable energy, we need to understand the economic narratives and the endpoints on that are techno optimism, which is akin to thinking there's infinite substitute ability of technology. And that we always find the solution to technological or social problems. The counter to that is techno realism, which is to take into account at your core line of thinking that the earth is finite and that there are physical constraints and physical laws that we've developed and that we need to incorporate those into the concept of the economy itself. So the book explores some of these narratives, things people say, things you hear in the news and then explains how we need to think about the economy as being really based upon energy.

Carey King:
So as a physical scientist, my background is physical science and mechanical engineering. So I don't have an economics background. It's very natural for me to think of energy and start from an energy standpoint, that energy essentially drives the economy. If we don't have an energy transformation or conversion from one type to another, then economic activity doesn't happen. So it seems logical that you should incorporate this into your economic modeling at least long term from the beginning. So if you don't think about energy running the economy but you're using economic models to make policy, then you're going to make policies that may not be consistent with what happens in the energy system. So it goes from energy to informs the economy or drives the economy. Economic models are often used to derive policy and when people make policies, the goal is to affect social outcomes, perhaps a distribution of money or help grow the economy, something like this.

Carey King:
And depending on what happens, whether things are working out like we want or not, we might loop back and try to influence the way we use energy, which is what de carbonization and energy transition is about. It's about changing the way the economy uses energy, which can have again, just like anything, social outcomes. So since most of economics students are taught and most economists practice using economic models that don't have an explicit role for energy in the economy. Then I'm trying to explain in this book, how we get inaccurate results from models. People think models are telling them something that they're not, they're assuming things much more than actually calculating outcomes.

Carey King:
So I think we're getting policy predictions or policies unpredicted social outcomes like changes in wages and debt increases since the 1970s, that if you don't have a energy perspective in the economic modeling, you'll never think that energy is in some sense by definition, you'll never think energy is a reason for the trends we've seen in the last 50 years since the 1970s. But if you take an energy lens to it, you can at least open your mind up to the idea that, hey, maybe some of the difficulties and the changes we've seen actually have to do with the rate at which we consume energy and the cost of consuming that energy.

Carey King:
So the book's diving into that starts with these narratives, explains long term trends of energy and costs, energy consumption, economic growth and then it goes into thinking about systems in the economy and ends with a lot more philosophical discussion about when people say things, political will and different kinds of things that might be holding back energy transition. Can we really understand what that means? But it really is for, I'd say mostly someone with an energy background who wants to understand how to think about the economy and for someone who has an economics background. I think it makes a good case for why we need to think more deeply about incorporating the role of energy very explicitly into long term economic growth modeling.

Jason Price: 
That is helpful, thank you. Before digging deeper, let's talk about the title you call it, The Economic Super Organism. What exactly does that mean?

Carey King:
So this idea in some sense, comes from biology as it might sound like with organism and this is maybe not my original attempted title for the book but it is an apt title for the book. So nonetheless, the economy, as a super organisms suggests that the collective parts of although the economy of what we call the economy, it's composed to people and machines and different kinds of rules that govern interactions. These things operate as a whole and they have a metabolism just like an animal or an organism that we might study in biology. And they have a metabolism or the economy has a metabolism, even like a colony of ants and ant colonies and bee colonies are what they would call use social insects. They are often termed as a super organism. So the economy is similar in the sense that, the economy takes in natural resource inputs from the environment, takes in energy from the environment and it uses this energy and resources to organize itself, to maintain itself, to repair itself.

Carey King:
And it also uses these resources to grow and expand and become larger, accumulating machines, accumulating cars or power plants, transmission and distribution lines. All of these things play a part, so that's intuitive but it goes one step more in the sense that when you look at the patterns between the size of the economy and the rate of energy consumption, then there again seems to be a parallel with biological organisms and super organisms like ant colonies. And we see these similar patterns. And one of these patterns for example, is, if you grow the economy by 10%, do you consume 10% more energy?

Carey King:
And since the 1970s, the answer is no. When the economy gets 10% bigger, it consumes less than 10% more energy. And this is the same kind of thing that happens in mammals as well as social insect colonies. When they get bigger, if you have more ants in an ant colony, if you have 10 times more ants, they don't consume 10 times more energy. And so there's this general patterns that sit behind there that make us think, hey, maybe there really are physical mechanisms that are governing the number of investments we make, the types of capital and how much energy they consume. Maybe this is governed by similar physical principles as biological organisms

Jason Price: 
In the book, you looked at some long term trends in the historical data of energy and energy costs. And I found the parallels interesting and the takeaways that you drew quite thought provoked. Tell us more about that. Were you surprised by any of the particular outcomes that you encountered in your research and publication of this book?

Carey King:
Yeah, it's a good question. I would say, I don't know if I surprised because I was researching this and I knew the trends before I wrote the book but probably one of the drivers for me to decide to write a book was the fact that I'd looked at these long term trends of say the last couple hundred years of the cost of energy, particularly in England and the United Kingdom where the data exist for a longer period of time. And it seemed to me that trend in these costs had been somewhat underappreciated in the literature and in discussion about just the energy system and the economy in general. So I thought, okay, well this is a reason to write a book to try to emphasize the importance of just knowing these data and then having people think about putting these data into the context of what they're thinking about is in terms of the economy.

Jason Price: 
Really the thing that made me want to write the book and put these data in there was that since about the year 2000, this relative cost of food and energy as a share of GDP has not really declined. And even if you look at the United States and you add up spending on food and spending on energy, it's essentially the same as it was 20 years ago. I told the students in my class when I was showing them this chart and I hadn't even thought about it until I spoke with them that effectively the first generation to live in the United States when the cost of core needs like food and energy has not become cheaper as a percentage of GDP. So these are the core inputs that have been associated with material prosperity. Economic growth has been largely, certainly correlated and we can argue how this works with a declining cost of food and energy.

Carey King:
And if that cost is not declining, we can ask questions about what are the potential for economic growth and feedbacks to wages and profits for companies and should we think about what the state of the economy is? While I kind of stated that this transformation, this is nothing new to say that the transformation from pre-industrial to today has been facilitated by fossil fuels. I discussed in the book, the fossil fuel narrative still tends to neglect, to confront the points of the techno realism narrative, that there's a finite nature of fossil stocks. You can't indefinitely keep extracting more at a cheaper cost and because of that, you can't have an indefinitely growing economy based upon fossil fuels, aside from even pollution and thinking about climate change. In the same way that renewable electricity technologies have become more cost competitive with burning fossil fuels and power plants, renewable technologies also must confront the same techno realistic constraints.

Carey King:
So just because solar panels and batteries might come down in cost, as we manufacture more, this doesn't mean that the entire collective cost of the energy supply. It doesn't mean that, that's always going to still decrease. So the news that we often read about and in here on TV, we hear these usually techno optimistic interpretations of either fossil energy or either renewable energy, in the book I try to explain that we probably need a little bit more of a techno realism viewpoint thrown in there as well, not to pit one technology versus another or one company versus another but it's really there just to literally understand how things work at a more fundamental level.

Matt Chester:
Carey, I want to jump in here because you're mentioning that the differences with fossils and renewables and if we're amid this energy transition, I've seen some people argue, we're moving almost from a model of scarcity where there's limited fossil fuels that are only available in specific places to be mined, to a model that's more about abundance and readily available energy through solar, wind, geothermal, what have you. So does that change the dynamic when you look back at these historical trends in how applicable they'll be moving forward?

Carey King:
Yeah, it's a good question. In chapter three, I talk about these narratives that one side might use versus the other, for or against, for itself or against the other in size or like the size of the resource I say, is one of these kinds of discussions that happen. Either fossil fuel resources are bigger than we can imagine using for a long time or renewable resources, obviously sunlight hitting the earth each year is a large number compared to what we consume. So it's not necessarily the size of energy resources but when people talk about the economy and how things are doing, it's really about the rate of consumption. I mean, GDP is a rate, it's a dollar per year or dollar per time. And so the corresponding metric to compare to the size of the economy or its wages getting paid, these kinds of things is not energy, which is a stock, how much do you have? It's power or the rate of change of energy over time, the rate at which we're extracting energy resources from the environment, that's the thing that relates to the economy.

Carey King:
So the fact that there's a lot of sunlight that hits the earth, I think, I mean the most impactful thing we do on the planet in terms of a human species on the planet affecting other species is agriculture. And that takes up the vast majority of land appropriated for human use. Renewables are essentially taking up more land, just due to lower power density of the flows of power across the land. So there's enough land out there to put solar and wind panels to power even modern society but it's not a trivial amount. And I think this is the challenge is, exactly how much infrastructure can we put around places.

Carey King:
And it's not to say it's only renewables, it's just generally cities and agriculture and everything. It's different in different places. I live in Texas and most of the wind turbines are in the panhandle of Texas and far west Texas, where the population is relatively low density and farmings relatively difficult. So it's generally popular for the landowners there. So it works out there but it's not necessarily the same everywhere. The good question, your question is the good one, exactly how much of this resource are we going to tap out? How much is going to be restricted by social versus physical means? The physical means doesn't look too restrictive but it may be the social pushback on the use of the land.

Jason Price: 
Carey, are these issues have been lingering for generations. And you spent time in the book talking about the lessons learned in the 1970s, the changes and the energy economic, social and political trends around that time period. You don't think these changes are a coincidence but propose that they're all interrelated with energy consumption? I think that's a fascinating thesis. Can you please explain a little bit more about that?

Carey King:
In my book, chapter seven tries to summarize a lot of charts in a very small chapter to try to make this case. In the 1970s, you see a large change in the economic trends, as well as trends and energy from the world war II until the early 1970s, the growth rate and energy consumption per person was something like 4% a year in the US and almost the global economy nearly as well. In 1970, the US had a peak oil production rate or extraction rate at the time that we now surpassed the last few years due to hydraulic fracturing. But at the time there was a extraction peak in oil and on the economic side, there were changes that were also important. The US got off the gold standard officially in 1971. So now the money supply was not tied to a physical quantity.

Carey King:
It's not the only time of course that it got off the gold standard but we've been off that since. Inflation was running high and a lot of people, I think reasonably, tie this to spending in the Vietnam war, leading at the late 1960s, as well as the idea that wages were often linked to inflation in terms of union contracts. So if general prices went up, then their wages would go up. So they'd maintain purchasing power and this wages going up with inflation and profits for companies and the derivation or I guess, formation of the middle class concept in the United States all occurred in the 1950s and 1960s, as well as relatively low income inequality. So this was the time effectively, globally and in the United States when there was the lowest level of income inequality. And when you look at the energy consumption data, this was also of the time of the highest increase rate of energy consumption in the history of mankind.

Carey King:
So these three decades from essentially the end of world war II until 1973, global energy consumption increased at over 4% a year on average, that's never happened before. And it hasn't happened since, my guess, it's probably not going to happen again. So it brings up the question is, is it easier to have social relations and more equal distribution of proceeds from the economy? Only if the economy's growing so fast, that it becomes much more feasibly socially to distribute an rapidly expanding pie and that rapidly expanding pie, does it have to come with a rapidly expanding consumption of energy? And the data indicate yes. Now whether we can get away from that in the future, possibly we can.

Carey King:
So many political economists will say or people working for unions will say, "Well, the changes since the 1970s that people are talking about." We're talking about wage stagnation since the 1970s, you look at the data for the United States and the wage share or the percentage of GDP that goes to pay wages and salaries essentially declined since 1973 or the early 1970s. And I look at that and I say, "Well, maybe this is not a coincidence." As you put in the question to the changes and the rate of energy consumption and constraints on consuming more energy and increase in the oil prices during that time and the adjustments that were made,

Jason Price: 
Carey, we've been discussing some long ago events and also staying big picture. So let's bring all this together with recent event that all our audience will be familiar with. And that's the power outage in ERCOT caused by the winter storm this past February, you had a report looking into this event, what are some of the main findings that you've encountered and is that situation also tie into the economic issues you've been highlighting for us?

Carey King:
So, yeah, myself and I think 11 other colleagues here at the University of Texas at Austin, we were, yeah, I wrote a report that came out in July of this year, 2021, summarizing some public but some non-public data associated with the blackouts in February 2021 in ERCOT. And we were able to access some data from the submitted to ERCOT and through the public utility commission, to look at some other things and reveal some patterns and trends to inform decision making based upon that event. So one thing we did look up was that power generators reported to ERCOT the temperature ratings of their power plants or at least the low temperature ratings. They have a rating for, my power plant can operate at this low temperature. And then we of course know when the power plants went out of service, at least for those that did go out of service or have an outage.

Carey King:
And when you plotted these next to each other, you see that at least a sample of power plants we looked at, the majority of them had an outage at a temperature that was above their lowest temperature rating. So, and in some sense, it brings up the question of, okay, if you're going to weatherize power plants, if you're going to winterize power plants to try to make them more robust in Texas, where we don't normally have extreme winters and they already have these temperature ratings, they didn't even operate down to the temperature rating. So it emphasizes that the importance of, essentially engineering design and engineer criteria for determining, can you rate a power plant at a temperature? Exactly what does that mean? We weren't able to look at the preparations of power plants that kept operating. Most of the power plants actually kept operating but we didn't have any data on those.

Carey King:
So that would be something that I hope ERCOT and public utility commission look at and help the community know more of what was going on there. One of the other major things we stressed was that the natural gas system was probably stressed in terms of its delivery of natural gas. It was probably more stressed than any time in its history. Some of the data we looked at implied that natural gas storage facilities, some of them might have reached 0% of natural gas working gas in them in 2022, just like an event in 2011, as well as 1989, that were winter events. There was a shortage of delivery of natural gas to power plants. There was a large reduction in demand of industrial use of natural gas to try to essentially preserve natural gas flows to homes and power plants. So this interconnectedness or interdependence between the natural gas system and the electricity system is known before this event and this event, just emphasizes that again.

Carey King:
And the importance of understanding that, now there's been some controversy that the Texas Legislature passed Senate Bill 3 and as part of that, they had a rule that natural gas facilities could be deemed quote, unquote critical, and they would have to meet a weatherization standard. And then they would be penalized if they didn't meet this standard. And it out that since the passing of that bill, they are allowed to essentially pay a small fee to opt out of being called critical instead of weatherizing and making the natural gas system more robust to deliver natural gas during a extreme winter storm. They can just opt out of that regulation. And I don't think the legislature was able to correct that yet. And I don't know if they will. That's one of the things that changed so it, some have estimated that it might cost tens of thousands of dollars per well to winterize a natural gas well, for example or you could just pay $150 to opt out of that.

Jason Price: 
Yeah. Well, winter's right around the corner. So we shall see. Carey, now it's time to shift to one of our listeners' favorite parts, the lightning round. We're going to toss you a couple of quick questions that require a response of just one word or phrase. Are you ready?

Carey King:
Okay. Go for it.

Jason Price: 
All right. What's the one book or movie you'd want to access on a deserted island?

Carey King:
I'll probably go with the movie Airplane.

Jason Price: 
Favorite holiday tradition?

Carey King:
Probably nothing particularly special here, just getting together with family. I guess just the basics.

Jason Price: 
What's your guilty pleasure?

Carey King:
I don't know if it falls into guilty pleasure but I have time for fly fishing either at the Texas coast or in the mountains for trout.

Jason Price: 
What's the best gift you've ever received?

Carey King:
Oh, I could say getting a call from my friend to cold call a person who became my wife and set up a first date. So that was a nice gift.

Jason Price: 
What are you most optimistic about?

Carey King:
I think I'm optimistic that there is, I think a large audience out there for long form reporting, like in podcasts like this, where people might even listen to topics and get into depth and understand different points of view over the course of more, more than an hour, maybe even two hours. So I think that there seems to be an audience for these kinds of things to learn about science and economics. That leads me hopeful that people are seeking information and seeking nuance and not just satisfied with sound bites that we mostly hear. So, that leaves me a little hopeful that we can use conversation to try to find solutions to our issues.

Jason Price: 
We have a lot of movers and shakers just listening in on this podcast. So we're going to give you the final word. Carey, what would you like to share and what is your beat, so the elevator pitch to them, what they need to be doing to move forward?

Carey King:
I mean, I think your audience is a lot of the electricity industry and no secret that more things are getting electrified. And this is seen as a route towards de carbonization. So electricity is, it's always been important and maybe it's going to become even more critical to our livelihoods. And so I think the idea that the electric grid is a, it's obviously a physical network that connects us in some way. There might be ways to use that to continue to build more of a sense of community in a world where people are finding ways to break apart the communities into smaller and smaller parts and pit one can community versus the other but we're all a community that uses the electric grid. So I think we have an opportunity to use that to bring people together. And ERCOT blackouts were an example where some of the utility executives were questioned on whether they turned off power more quickly or more often to lower income areas versus rich income areas or black communities versus white communities and neighborhoods and these kinds of things.

Carey King:
And it didn't seem to be that there was any evidence of the case or at least not that I saw them present and they seemed not to believe it themselves. So I think that was, that's definitely a good thing. It's a good point for the electric industry to say that, "No, we're about running the grid and we're about doing it as fairly as we can and we operate in certain constraints but here's the way we do it, if there's we can do it better, then good let's have that discussion." I think that was a good, at least one good point that was brought up at least in the blackouts and ERCOT. So there's going to be more challenges going forward. There's people calling for different types of investments in the electric grid but if we can share the burdens most equally across all income groups, I think that's what we need to do.

Carey King:
And maybe there can be less fixation. This might be a request to try to have less fixation on the electricity price or the rate, like a dollar per kilowatt hour and a little bit more focus on household expenditures and the relative spending of energy or electricity, in this sense that if we making changes and uncertainty and maybe some turn out to be more costly than we thought. There's some people like myself with a relatively good income that might, we might be able to pay a little bit more to ease the burden on people who have lower incomes.

Carey King:
We definitely shouldn't let the cost of electricity and price and discussions on that be a deterrent to the changes in making the grid more resilient and more lower carbon. I don't want to use the price discussion as a way to say, "Well, it's going to hurt poor people so you shouldn't do that." No, you can try to do both. You can try to decarbonize, modernize the grid and we can also make policies that try to ensure that the lower incomes aren't burdened disproportionately, those can be done in tandem. So that would be my request to think about that.

Jason Price: 
Very nice. And Carey, we don't often get authors on the show, so I just want to repeat the title. So if anyone's listening, they should definitely pick up the book. It's called The Economic Super Organism: Beyond the Competing Narratives on Energy Growth and Policy.

Carey King:
Thank you, Jason. Yes.

Jason Price: 
This has been a terrific episode and I can't wait to see the Energy Central Community post questions and comments about this particular topic and let you know, Carey, that they're thinking and benefiting from the knowledge that you're sharing. So thanks again for sharing your insight on today's podcast.

Carey King: 
Thank you very much, Jason and Matt for having me.

Jason Price: 
Once again I'm your host Jason Price, plug in and stay fully charged in the discussion by hopping into the community at energycentral.com. And we'll see you next time at the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast.

 


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The Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast is hosted by Jason PriceCommunity Ambassador of Energy Central. Jason is a Business Development Executive at West Monroe, working in the East Coast Energy and Utilities Group. Jason is joined in the podcast booth by the producer of the podcast, Matt Chester, who is also the Community Manager of Energy Central and energy analyst/independent consultant in energy policy, markets, and technology.  

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Thanks once again to the sponsors of this episode of the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast: West MonroeEsriAnterix, and ScottMadden

 

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