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Episode #121: 'Looking to The Future Safety of Hydrogen Energy' with Michael Nofal and Gid Herman of H2scan [an Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast]

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The march towards a more robust hydrogen energy economy seems inevitable, but what's left to be written is the timeframe and the manner in which that journey plays out. As a decarbonization option, an alternative fuel opportunity, and more, hydrogen will play a key role in our energy systems of tomorrow. But as those developments play out in the future, critical to today is continuing to advance safety measures to ensure that process moves along smoothly.

Today's episode of the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast is the final installment in our series with H2scan diving into the world of hydrogen detecting and monitoring through all aspects of energy. This episode features Michael Nofal, H2scan's Vice President of Global Sales and Business Development, and Gid Herman, Director of Sales and Business Development, with this dynamic duo leading the way when it comes to ensuring hydrogen detection technology advances to keep pace with the hydrogen economy to ensure safety issues are never a concern or impediment to the future of hydrogen. Listen in as Michael and Gid chat with podcast host Jason Price and producer Matt Chester on what energy leaders should be doing today and in the years to come with regard to hydrogen monitoring technologies and safety measures.

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Thanks to the sponsor of this episode of the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast: H2scan.  

 

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TRANSCRIPT

Jason Price: 

Welcome to the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast, the show that brings leading minds from the energy industry to discuss the challenges and trends that are transforming and modernizing our energy system, and a quick thank you to H2scan, our sponsor of today's show. Now, let's talk energy.

I'm Jason Price, Energy Central Podcast host and director with West Monroe, coming to you from New York City, and with me as always from Orlando, Florida, is Energy Central producer and community manager, Matt Chester.

Matt, today, we're fortunate to wrap up with our final installment of episodes featuring H2scan. Today, we're exploring the current developments in the hydrogen economy, an area that's seen a lot of funding recently from federal and private industry. Matt, give us an overview of the hydrogen economy, where is the influx of funding primarily going to, and set the stage for our guests today.

 

Matt Chester: 

I'd love to, Jason. The hydrogen economy is still in its somewhat earlier stages in the grand scheme of things, but it no doubt feels like a race to be first in a number of ways. Companies and countries alike want to be the first ones putting out at scale affordable and effective green hydrogen. Pilot projects have begun mixing hydrogen fuel into natural gas streams, and it really feels like the technology is poised to reach a pivot point in adoption at any moment. That will be aided of course by some recent public policy in the United States that's leaning into that hydrogen economy. Specifically, for the first time, the types of tax credits that were previously available to renewable generation are now being offered for clean hydrogen production. Clean hydrogen plants are now eligible for a production tax credit of $3 per kilogram over the first 10 years of operation. This type of economic nudge that stakeholders are scrambling to start integrating into their plans and kickstart their production processes means that the future is no doubt bright for this technology and the whole sector.

 

Jason Price: 

Yeah, it sure does. Thanks for diving in, Matt. I know our guests will have a lot to say on this area, and specifically a key area of focus for them is safety amid hydrogen acceptance. Let's bring them in to learn as much as we can in this limited time we have. First off, we have Mike Nofal, who is H2scan's VP of global sales and business development.

Mike, welcome to the podcast.

 

Michael Nofal: 

Thank you, Matt and Jason, for having us on today. We appreciate the opportunity to speak on what we believe is a very interesting topic.

 

Jason Price: 

Fantastic, and joining him is Gid Herman, H2scan's director of sales and business development.

Gid, thanks for being here.

 

Gid Herman: 

Thank you, Matt and Jason. Good to be here.

 

Jason Price: 

Okay, to reset the stage for our listeners, recently on Power Perspectives, we've heard from your colleagues that, as we further electrify and add technology to the grid edge in the form of DER, plus the natural operations of equipment like lead-acid batteries and substations, there is a growing risk for and the need of hydrogen-scanning equipment as a means for safety and prevention.

Today, we're going to take a different approach. Today, with our guests, we are going to examine safety in the hydrogen domain for the current economy, but also the future economy. As Matt points out in the summary, this area is estimated to be valued on the scale of hundreds of billions of dollars in the near future.

How about we start with you, Mike? Give our listeners an overview of the areas of this business you work in, and then over to Gid.

 

Michael Nofal: 

Yeah. Thank you. H2scan provides hydrogen analyzers in three main business areas, our transformer monitoring for early detection of faults, battery room monitoring for hydrogen buildup, and process and safety measurement and detection for many global industries. Gid and I are responsible for the process and safety division. H2scan has been measuring and detecting hydrogen now for over 20 years with hydrogen-specific, real-time analyzers in the process and safety applications in many global markets, including refineries, petrochemical plants, gas manufacturing, steel manufacturing, nuclear facilities, labs and, now, hydrogen economy applications such as electrolyzers, fuel cells, power to gas, hydrogen generation, distribution, transportation, storage, mobility, refueling. In all of these applications, safety is a primary concern.

 

Jason Price: 

Gid, do you want to take it over?

 

Gid Herman: 

Yes. We've seen a huge uptake over the last several years in requests and demands for these kinds of products globally, not just in the United States, as the hydrogen economy is still in its infancy, of course, as you pointed out, but really starting to grow and develop a little bit of traction with a lot of uncertainty, I think, and we'll talk about that in a bit as to exactly how to help this economy develop and grow successfully.

 

Jason Price: 

As hydrogen continues to proliferate, what are some new features that H2scan offers? Gid, do you want to take it from here?

 

Gid Herman: 

Sure. With a lot of these different industries, there are applications where the sensor may be installed in a remote location. I talked about the value stream where hydrogen is blended into the pipelines, and you might have blending stations or compressor stations that might be in a remote location. We also have applications with electrolyzer, fuel cell OEMs where these, again, might be installed somewhere where reaching them regularly for calibration can be an issue. Calibration it turns out is a very important point in terms of adopting the right technology and the right sensor in these applications.

H2scan's newest generation of products we're calling the fifth generation, or Gen5 products, feature auto calibration. What that means is that the sensor is now constantly monitoring itself and, when it detects that some drift has occurred which may push it out of specification, it'll automatically perform an auto-calibration or a self-correction to bring the measurement back within specification. This makes it a very valuable feature for a lot of these applications because calibration often is a manual process. It may be done monthly. It may be done annually. It may be done somewhere in between, but it does take some time. It does have some cost associated with it to perform this calibration.

Now, when you're installing a sensor, a safety sensor in particular, and an electrolyzer or a key monitor on a blending station installed in the middle of a field somewhere, the H2scan technology allows for this ongoing auto-calibration for almost an indefinite period of time. That's a huge advantage over most other technologies that are out there and really something that is appealing to these users who are looking for the right technologies to help make these things a reality.

 

Jason Price: 

Okay. Safety is obviously the key value proposition that H2scan brings to the table, but what is the overall perception with hydrogen? Jokingly, of course, but is everyone waiting for the next Hindenburg? Is this an educational opportunity? Are there some areas that you are having to validate for the public that your sensors are sufficient for safety solutions? Share with us your thoughts on that, and maybe, Mike, you want to start?

 

Michael Nofal: 

Sure. Yeah. Anytime you deal with, potentially, explosive energy source, you need to be carefully monitoring the situation. I've attended many hydrogen workshops, forums, seminars and trade shows, and the number one topic that always comes up is safety. You have billions of dollars that's being put into a better energy solution, so the vetting process needs to be rigorous, and you need to make sure that you're providing a better solution, not creating a different one, but maybe a more dangerous one. To enable that hydrogen economy, sensors and analyzers are going to be crucial to provide the feedback necessary to ensure a productive and safe environment.

H2scan specializes and is very focused in providing the best hydrogen analyzers in the world for all markets and customers, and that's one of the reasons why H2scan raised over $70 million over a year ago to make sure that the company has a product roadmap to meet the needs of the market in a timely manner as these markets are developing and maturing. As standards and regulations are being developed and implemented, H2scan will be there to provide the solutions.

 

Jason Price: 

Yeah. I can see there's definitely a need for that particularly to your point that the market continues to mature.

Gid, I don't know if you have anything you'd like to add to this.

 

Gid Herman: 

Yeah. Well, hydrogen is used around the world today in enormous quantities very safely in a lot of different industries, moving it through pipelines in order to get it from point A to point B, from where it's made to where it's consumed, so there's already a decent amount of experience with hydrogen in large quantities being moved to where it's needed and being able to monitor and control.

H2scan, of course, has been at the forefront of this with sensors used for measuring it as it's moving and as well as monitoring for leaks. There's going to be a lot of new applications and new types of customers coming into the picture over the next several years, of course, and so that's what this safety solution really needs to be aimed at is now new industries and new types of customers who are familiar with hydrogen, but aren't necessarily as experienced, say, in the safe handling of it.

 

Jason Price: 

Yeah. All right. Well, Gid, let's stick with you because you brought up the whole concept of metrics and measuring. What are those metrics and measures that demonstrate safety, and has this been achieved at appropriate and necessary level, and does everyone define it the same way?

 

Gid Herman: 

I think there's a few different ways you can look at this. One is monitoring for leaks. As you mentioned the Hindenburg a moment ago, now, of course, it's important to note that the fabric was really what burned there, not the hydrogen. The hydrogen dispersed pretty quickly and actually wasn't really the source of that whole fire, but, generally speaking, hydrogen can build up and does tend to, well, want to explode under the right circumstances. The safety criteria are pretty well-established and, again, us, as a leader, we have a pretty good idea of what to monitor for what levels you need to be taking action against.

There's, typically, at a certain amount of hydrogen that you're detecting, you may want to have an alert go off to make operators aware or start to have certain safety actions occur such as sounding a horn or opening up a vent or turning on a fan. At a slightly higher level than that, you may want to have now an alarm. Now, suddenly, this is a more critical situation where action must be taken a little more urgently to prevent the buildup of hydrogen in air such that it starts to pose a potential safety concern.

 

Jason Price: 

Yeah. Understood. Mike, is there anything you'd like to add to that? Otherwise, we can go to the next question.

 

Michael Nofal: 

Yeah. Just that, over many years now, we've been dealing with companies around the world on this issue. There's gas transmission companies we've been dealing with in Europe and North America, as well as electrolyzer and fuel-cell companies, and they all have their different testing standards for safety, and because you're putting out a product in the marketplace, you have to make sure it's safe to operate. Our products are designed around that. We've been doing that, again, for six or seven years now since the hydrogen economy started to emerge.

 

Jason Price: 

Let's go with Mike and then Gid with my next question. Mike, give us some context on maturity of regulations across the globe. Since safety is such an issue, is there a regulatory or governing body for hydrogen like there is for nuclear and petroleum? What role can private industry like H2scan serve in the process? Mike, would you like to start with that?

 

Michael Nofal: 

Yeah. Sure. Yeah, we've been working in this field for a while now, and we've been working... There's what's going on in the United States and then there's what's going on in the rest of the world. We've been asked to participate in different working groups with the Department of Energy and NREL here in the United States. The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission has full jurisdiction basically over this interstate natural gas pipelines, but not necessarily for the electrical power transmission lines, so there's some crossover of responsibility yet, and the federal government yet hasn't made a determination as to how the government is going to regulate the construction of the hydrogen infrastructure.

Currently, there's a group called the Pipeline and Hazardous Material Safety Administration which operates under the Department of Transportation, and they basically regulate the hydrogen pipelines, but that's the Department of Transportation. They have the Department of Energy that's involved because this is a gas basically. Nothing has been determined yet in the United States. They're still working through it. There's many studies going on.

We're working with a lot of groups in the United States and also in Europe. You have the European Union agencies that are in charge there that are working through different types of regulation framework. They've drafted stuff that hasn't been approved yet for production, storage, and transportation of hydrogen. That's forthcoming right now, and they're still working on those things. We're part of those groups also in Europe, and there's trade associations like Hydrogen Europe and others, Hydrogen Safety in the United States that we're part of. It's a collaboration and almost a consortium of different groups that are sharing information globally to try to determine the best way to go forward in a safe manner.

 

Jason Price: 

Yeah. Understood. Gid, anything to add?

 

Gid Herman: 

Yeah. I think this is going to be a really big topic to keep an eye on because there are not a lot of regulations today. Mike mentioned a lot of the different groups that are involved, but nobody really knows for sure exactly what the regulations will look like. There's a lot of testing that's taking place both at some of these national labs and around the world and at universities with regards to the effects of hydrogen on things like pipelines. The existing steel pipelines may have an issue, depending on the amount of hydrogen that's present in the natural gas stream, for example, so there might be a need for really studying this carefully or there is a need for really studying this carefully in order to determine safe limits of hydrogen that can be put in the pipelines. Once that's in place, of course, they can be monitored accurately and that can help, but there's going to be a lot of research still over the next several years around the world in order to help determine exactly what these limits are, what the effects are going to be.

The other area of concern, for example, with hydrogen in the natural gas pipeline will be the effect on the burners, right? Hydrogen is going to burn slightly differently than natural gas, and so you're going to have different values and different calculations of that to occur at burners. You have to protect all this equipment. You don't want to have to replace burners globally at boilers and other places like that, so there's going to be a big effort I think to really understand the impact of hydrogen and, correspondingly, then the regulations around what those impacts will be.

 

Jason Price: 

Mike, you mentioned the DOE, so let's go back to you. I want you to talk a bit further about what your experience has been like with the DOE and its national labs in the areas of safety certification. We've had on Power Perspectives a number of podcast guests from these national labs, and many of them have talked about touching upon the different types of pioneering and piloting work. I'm sure some of it has been in the hydrogen space. Primarily, we've been talking about EV and elsewhere, but I think that it would be fascinating to get your perspective on what has the process been like working with these national labs. Can you share a little bit about that?

Gid, certainly jump in when you're ready.

 

Michael Nofal: 

Yeah. No. That's a great point. It's interesting because H2scan's technology came out of the Department of Energy's Sandia National Laboratory 20 years ago. It has a license agreement and is now owned by H2scan along with over 30 patents that we have, so we're very familiar with working with the national labs. We enjoy working with them, providing feedback on different programs that they're working on, as well as getting their expertise to help us in the direction of new markets and government lab participation. They're deeply involved in the hydrogen economy markets and regulations and standards in those markets, and they've sponsored many of these hydrogen workshops. I participated in one over a week ago in Japan that was sponsored by the Department of Energy where they talked about many of these subjects, including sensors and how sensors should be used in different applications.

There's a lot of new, interesting technologies come out of these labs, and it's very interesting to follow them, as well as the universities that are working on stuff related to hydrogen and technology in hydrogen. They play a very important role in advancing technology and change in the industry, and so we work with many of the different labs, and again it's been very fruitful for us.

 

Jason Price: 

Gid?

 

Gid Herman: 

Yeah. A lot of these people, the people that we work with at these labs, they also sit on some of these regulatory committees. They have a lot of input. They have very deep expertise, and they test a lot of different products in a lot of ways that, otherwise, people wouldn't be testing, so they're able to provide really good input into this in almost sort of agnostic way, right? They're testing a lot of technologies in order to help determine what might be suitable for these kinds of applications going forward, so they definitely have a lot of valuable insight.

It's been good to work with these kinds of agencies that we provide our products for them to test, of course, and work with them on test results and, as Mike said, we're able to take this feedback. It helps improve our products and helps them understand what's out there, what's available, what's commercially viable for helping to make this hydrogen economy a reality in the near future.

 

Jason Price: 

Sure. On that note, our listeners rank closely on the hydrogen economy. We have on Power Perspectives on Energy Central that is a hydrogen group, and they cover and discuss areas of H2 manufacturing to H2 blending, storage and supply.

Gid, let's stay with you. I'd love to hear from your perspective. What do you see coming for the hydrogen economy in the coming years? What has you most excited about the process as it unfolds, and where do you think there's still work to go before it's really ready for primetime?

 

Gid Herman: 

It's an enormous value stream if you think about it, starting all the way from hydrogen generation, you have to produce the hydrogen somehow, all the way through to transmitting it through pipelines, storing it somewhere, ultimately sending it to the end user, whether that's a power plant or, down the road, potentially even houses. Hydrogen in the natural gas pipeline may be reaching houses, so what we're excited about is we see enormous opportunity in the future for being involved throughout this entire value stream.

We can help with the process and safety products, for example, on the hydrogen generation at the very start of the process all the way through the pipeline, the blending stations, the compressing stations, mixing stations, wherever hydrogen enters or exits the pipeline, we can help with that. When it's stored, we can help monitor that for safety. As it's entering the city and going through the larger distribution network now, we can help there.

We've been tested by gas transmission and gas utility companies for evaluating the impact of hydrogen on the combustion process, as I mentioned a minute earlier. The products are suitable for that kind of application as well, and then if you get all the way down to hydrogen into the home, now, you're going to have to have new meters at the home. It opens up enormous opportunities for a business like H2scan to get involved with very high volume applications and also become more almost a household brand, if you will, reaching all the way down to that level.

Today, our customers are large businesses, but as we expand into, potentially, the hydrogen to the home, now you have safety monitoring that might be necessary. That's also going to be true as fuel-cell vehicles start to become bigger. You might need safety monitoring in your garage, for example, just like you have a smoke detector or a carbon monoxide detector today. It really opens up a lot of new opportunities for the company over the next three to five to 10 years in terms of new applications and really wide distribution of the products.

 

Jason Price: 

Yeah. I can imagine that. Mike, anything to add?

 

Michael Nofal: 

Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting for me because I've been in the energy industry a long time. I've been on the oil and gas side, renewable side, now hydrogen side for the last 11 years. What's exciting is to see technology, the advancement of technology in energy and established industries in oil and gas and what is done there now with these new applications. For example, I don't know if you saw four weeks ago the first plane just flew on hydrogen up in Washington, the State of Washington. It's an LA-based startup company, and it's a turbo-powered regional airliner, and it flew for 15 minutes in a test flight on hydrogen. We're going to start to see a lot more of that. There's a lot of these new companies that are popping up, they could be new or established, that are starting to jump into these markets, and they come to us, of course, because they have to have sensors, they have to have analyzers for what they're doing.

For me, it's very exciting to see all of that, but I think, back to the challenges, you're going to have changing regulations, you're going to need support on investments, you're going to need competitive power prices and integrated supply structure, you're replacing in some cases trillions of dollars of investment, so this is going to take time, and you have to do these things right, and to have this clean hydrogen economy that's going to transcend over how many years, we don't know, they talk 2030, 2050, et cetera, to get to the goals they're looking for, to clean up the carbon, et cetera. All of these things are going to have to be achieved. Also, it's an educational process because, for example, engineering firms, their know-how and experience in operating these solutions in a safe and cost-effective environment, those have to be established also.

 

Jason Price: 

Yeah. Agreed. To both of you, I really appreciate the insight and thoughtful responses to these questions that I've been throwing at you. Thank you very much for being a good sport. We have something next called The Lightning Round, which is an opportunity to get to know you both a bit more as people rather than in a professional capacity, but as a personal capacity. We're going to ask you a set of questions, and we ask you to keep your response to one word or phrase.

Mike, I'll start with you, and then, Gid, you can follow. My first question, gentlemen, is are you ready?

 

Michael Nofal: 

Yes. I am ready-

 

Jason Price: 

Okay.

 

Michael Nofal: 

... I think. Let's see.

 

Jason Price: 

Here we go.

 

Gid Herman: 

Yeah, we'll see.

 

Jason Price: 

Let's stay with hydrogen. This is the warmup one, softball question we typically call it. Staying with hydrogen and putting on your sci-fi hats, what will be a common and natural use of hydrogen in our everyday lives 100 years from now? Mike?

 

Michael Nofal: 

I would say all mobility applications.

 

Jason Price: 

Gid?

 

Gid Herman: 

Heating the home.

 

Jason Price: 

I was looking for something a little more science fiction, but, okay, all right, we'll take it.

 

Gid Herman: 

Heating our home on the moon.

 

Jason Price: 

There you go. Now we're talking. All right. Question number two, Mike, best song to come on in the car on that road trip you're going to take?

 

Michael Nofal: 

Stairway to Heaven.

 

Jason Price: 

Gid?

 

Gid Herman: 

Fly Me to the Moon.

 

Jason Price: 

Mike, ideal destination you'd be heading to on this trip.

 

Michael Nofal: 

I'm not much for space travel. I'd say any tropical islands.

 

Jason Price: 

Gid, is it moon for you, or where would you go?

 

Gid Herman: 

One-word, yes, moon.

 

Jason Price: 

Okay. Mike, if not working for H2scan, what other direction would you have expected your career may have taken?

 

Michael Nofal: 

I'd say venture capital or investment banking.

 

Jason Price: 

Gid?

 

Gid Herman: 

Professional golfer.

 

Jason Price: 

Mike, what is your greatest passion?

 

Michael Nofal: 

Personally, it's all anything related to my family activities and, professionally, advancing new technologies and energy.

 

Jason Price: 

Gid?

 

Gid Herman: 

Chess.

 

Jason Price: 

Chess? Is that it?

 

Gid Herman: 

Mm-hmm.

 

Jason Price: 

Very nice. Okay. Great. Well done getting through The Lightning Round. Now, that means we're going to give you each a final statement for the episode. If our listeners can take away one final message from the episode, what do you hope they remember?

Mike, let's start with you.

 

Michael Nofal: 

I would say that there's a diligent effort that's taking place globally to ensure a safe hydrogen economy. Energy, being very important to the standard of living in any society, requires a smart, practical, balanced approach to future energy sources. I think exploring and vetting these new technologies, techniques and sources is crucial, while improving and maintaining the current ways to support the needs of our society to maintain the standard of living. Hydrogen presents an opportunity that needs to be fully vetted and explored, and H2scan will play a major role in enabling the hydrogen economy and making sure safety is a priority.

 

Jason Price: 

Gid, you're up.

 

Gid Herman: 

Yeah, I think Mike said that very well. It's very clear that hydrogen is coming. It's going to play a major role in the future. Exactly what that looks like remains to be seen as we've discussed, but there are going to be ways to do this in a safe and meaningful way. There's growing pressure around the world to decarbonize, and hydrogen is going to be a key ingredient in making that a reality. I think we're well positioned to help that reality come about with our products and our expertise in this space.

 

Jason Price: 

Fantastic, great messages and great conversation. Topics around hydrogen have just been fascinating with H2scan, and I encourage all our listeners to listen and enjoy all three of the episodes that are available on Energy Central.

Again, I want to thank you both for sharing your insight with us on today's podcast and look forward to catching up maybe a year from now to see how things have developed in the hydrogen economy. Thank you both, Mike and Gid.

 

Michael Nofal:

You're welcome.

 

Gid Herman: 

My pleasure.

 

Jason Price: 

We also want to give a shoutout of thanks to the podcast sponsor that made today's episode possible. Thanks to H2scan. H2scan Corporation specializes in the design, development and manufacture of industrial-hardened hydrogen sensors. The company was founded in 2002. Based in Valencia, California, H2scan's products are used in various utility and industrial applications, including power transformer, health analysis, substation, battery room safety, processed gas stream monitoring. The sensors and analyzers are designed to provide accurate and reliable measurements of hydrogen concentration levels for 10-plus years without requiring calibration. H2scan's technology is based on advanced material science, and the company is committed to providing innovative solutions to help customers improve their processes and operations.

Once again, I'm your host, Jason Price. Plug in and stay fully charged in the discussion by hopping into the community at energycentral.com, and we'll see you next time at the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast.

 

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