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The wheels on the bus make the grid go-round

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Can electric school buses change the paradigm of power, permanently?

Today on Power Perspectives, we’re finding out—with Kevin Matthews, Head of Electrification at First Student. With the launch of the V2X Smart Energy Hub project in Brooklyn, First Student and Con Edison are pioneering a new way to use electric school buses as mobile energy assets, helping the grid balance demand while reducing emissions.

Kevin shares the vision behind First Student’s electrification efforts, the unique challenges and opportunities of transitioning large fleets to electric, and how the V2X Hub provides cleaner air and a more resilient grid for the community.Tune in to learn about:

  • The motivation behind electrifying the city's school buses
  • How the V2X Smart Energy Hub works and why it’s a game-changer
  • The benefits of leveraging school buses as mobile energy storage
  • Overcoming skepticism & other lessons learned from collaborating with a utility as massive as Con Edison

Join host Jason Price and producer Matt Chester as they dive into the cutting edge of fleet electrification and grid innovation with Kevin Matthews.

Prefer to Read vs. Listening? Scroll Down to Read Transcript

Thanks to the sponsor of this episode of the Power Perspectives: West Monroe

 

Key Links:

Kevin Matthews's Energy Central Profile: https://energycentral.com/member/profile/kevin-matthews

Ask a Question to Our Future Guests: Do you have a burning question for the utility executives and energy industry thought leaders that we feature each week on Power Perspectives? Leave us a message here for your chance to be featured in an upcoming episode: www.speakpipe.com/EnergyCentralPodcast 

 

TRANSCRIPT

Jason Price:

EVs are no longer a niche market. Charging networks continue to grow and penetrate the mainstream. But what about the school buses? These fleets operate during the day and sit idle in the evenings, weekends, and school vacations. There are pilots, government funding and various other incentives available to stakeholders looking to leverage this resource. We'll explore this topic and a lot more next on Power Perspectives.

Welcome to the Energy Central Power Perspectives podcast. I'm Jason Price, your host coming to you from New York City. And with me as always from Orlando, Florida is Energy Central producer and community manager, Matt Chester.

Matt, do you see the electric school buses driving past you in Orlando or have you heard reports of them from members of the Energy Central community?

 

Matt Chester:

Well, I'm assuming one of the fun parts of electric school buses is that when I see those school buses driving by, I can't tell what's fueling them so I guess my answer is maybe. But for the Energy Central community, I've definitely seen interest on electrifying buses for quite a while with school buses being seen as a great opportunity because of their part-time, very regular schedule, their high capacity to serve as flexible demand and their ubiquity in every community across the country. Who wouldn't want to reduce the amount of tailpipe emissions right in front of our children?

But the challenges large bus fleets present have definitely been the main question about this trend from the Energy Central community. And the desire is making sure that the grid can handle them. So that's what I'm eager to learn about today during this conversation.

 

Jason Price:

Thanks Matt. And before we dive in, a big thank you to West Monroe, our sponsor of today's episode. West Monroe works with utilities on projects like grid modernization and clean energy to make discussions like this possible.

While electric school buses are already helping to make the air cleaner around schools, First Student and Con Edison have taken this a step further with a pioneering project in Brooklyn that uses school buses not only as a vehicle but as a mobile energy asset, the vehicle to everything, otherwise known as V2X. Smart energy hub enables these electric school buses to charge, store, and even deliver clean power to the grid during peak demand.

Here to discuss this unique approach to meeting grid goals is Kevin Matthews, the head of electrification at First Student North America's largest transportation company.

Kevin, welcome to the Energy Central Power Perspectives podcast.

 

Kevin Matthews:

Thanks, Jason. Glad to be here today and talk about electric school buses and First Student's role in bringing this to fruition across North America.

 

Jason Price:

Fantastic, and as are we. So Kevin, tell us first about First Student. I understand that you serve millions of students each day. That's a lot of kids to transport. What is your core business of First Student and what are you addressing in the market?

 

Kevin Matthews:

Yeah. So First Student is the largest school bus operator in North America. We operate 46,000 yellow school buses across 44 states in six provinces of Canada. And we serve about 1300 school districts through that model. And what that model is, is primarily school districts will look to outsource their student transportation needs.

So First Student provides the buses, the drivers, the mechanics, the route planning, the dispatchers, the whole ecosystem that comes around student transportation. So it's a real soup to nuts operation that we bring to our customers. School superintendents generally haven't taken courses in logistics and transportation, so we're the experts that solve that problem for them.

And I always like to put this in perspective. First Student transports about 2.7 million children every day. The Friday before Memorial Day this year, the combined US airline industry set a record. So that's everybody from American Airlines down to Spirit type carriers. They transported 2.9 million passengers. We do 2.7 million alone as a company and we do that twice a day.

 

Jason Price:

That's a quite astronomical number. I can just imagine what that must be like on a daily basis.

Let's talk about this whole transition that's going on here. So we're transitioning from traditional conventional fleets to electric and it's no small task. Talk about the vision behind First Student's electrification efforts. What were the motivations and what challenges did you anticipate as you went down that pathway?

 

Kevin Matthews:

So first and foremost, at First Student our mission is safety. We have a societal trust that's been giving us to transport kids. And so everything we do is with safety in mind. As we reviewed our safety operations and began to see what were the next challenges, the next areas we should address, clearly the air quality inside the bus was one of those that needed to be looked at, as well as our emissions throughout the communities in which we operate. And so that was really our driving motivation to begin this transition to electric.

And with that in mind, we set a goal of electrifying 30,000 of our school buses by the year 2035. And so that step really first and foremost is around safety. And then second is, we believe this will be a more cost-effective way to transport students. We think there are real benefits that come from electrification, from a maintenance side, from a fuel side, and from an operation side that will bring benefits to us and our customers down the road.

 

Jason Price:

Talk to us about the V2X smart energy hub. I mentioned that in the lead up here. What does the hub look like? Where did the idea come from? How does it fit in the overall First Student vision? And what is unique about this program that perhaps other pilots across the country could learn from?

 

Kevin Matthews:

Yeah, so this was a great project that came to us in partnership with Con Edison in New York City. This was an idea that I think originated first with Con Ed that would put out an RFI talking about what were some of the economic and technical issues that would impact bringing cost-effective solution to fleet operators.

Our team led by Alex Cook, our chief engineer, took a look at that and said, "Wow, this is kind of a tabula rasa for us to write out maybe a different way of doing this." And so Alex and the engineering team at First Student really dug down deep and said, "What are the challenges we're going to have? What are the challenges we're particularly going to have and in Con Ed's territory," which is primarily the five boroughs of New York City. And we operate about 2,500 school buses in their territory.

And we recognized that it was an issue of really getting electricity to our locations was the problem. There are energy congestion issues all throughout Con Ed's territory. And not only are there the energy conditions, there are just transmission issues that come in there. And then we have simple issues like underground utilities that have to be dealt with. At the location where we're going to do this project, one of the things we learned when we were doing our first evaluation about bringing electric school buses there is the primary jet fuel line for JFK Airport runs underneath our location that really what's going to impact our ability to excavate. So that led a lot of people to start putting on creative hats about how we could do this.

And so the idea eventually boiled down to, rather than Con Ed delivering power to us, could we build basically a virtual power plant, a smart energy hub at our location that would supply enough electricity to charge the buses we'll be putting there, but also then support grid issues that Con Ed has in that area.

And so that kind of led to this collaborative approach of what does it need to be? And the end result was a solar arrays on top of our roof, stationary storage placed at our location, as well as then taking advantage of the school bus batteries on the electric units and then also putting solar arrays on top of the school buses because our parking lots are really big areas and it's wasted space in terms of a solar canopy because you can't build solar canopies where our buses operate. Turning radius is really tight, would make it difficult, but looking at putting them directly atop the bus so that our buses become a solar field as well.

And we think this really is going to be a excellent pilot not only for utilities but for other fleets to take a look at. How can we look to generate electricity and use that electricity on the customer side of the meter, but that will also support and enhance the utilities operations and needs as well, but also do that in a very cost-effective format?

 

Jason Price:

That's fantastic. We've got to make sure we have some photos of these fleets on the Energy Central platform so that people can see it firsthand with these.

 

Kevin Matthews:

We also have a really good video. It's about two and a half minutes long that explains this entire project.

 

Jason Price:

That's excellent.

Let me ask you about, it's a little bit of the physics of the battery itself. I always understood that the charging and uncharging as a good resource can impact the battery's life and the overall economics of the electric school bus. Is that still the case? Can you just talk about that?

 

Kevin Matthews:

Yes. Charging cycles are still an impact. They still have issues that impact the longevity of the bus, the wear and tear on the batteries, but it can be managed. And so that's really what we're looking to do.

As you mentioned, as you rolled in, school buses sit approximately 80% of the hours of a year. So what we've learned we can do is at nighttime when we have that long period to charge the bus fully, we can charge it at a very low rate as low as seven, eight kilowatts. And so that puts less wear and tear. If you're not trying to cram electricity quickly onto the battery, that reduces the impacts pretty significantly. And then the same goes for discharge. If you can discharge at a slower rate, if we're participating in a V2X project, that has benefits as well.

However, the school buses are very unique. Our usage pattern is less than 12,000 miles a year. So we're going to put less strain on our batteries from an operational side as well. And so that's why the school buses are really a unique and ideal vehicle for both the utilities and fleet operators to really learn how these impacts are going to go and how the vehicles can help support the grid as well.

 

Jason Price:

Let's talk about the Brooklyn community and this whole V2X hub that's going on there. So what was the reaction like with the community? Was it receptive? Did you receive any pushback or skepticism? Just what's the general approach you took? Could you talk or describe that experience?

 

Kevin Matthews:

Yeah. To date the project just announced in October, we have been receiving nothing but positive feedback from all the parties involved. The community around this location, and again, it's a very industrial area, but it is New York, Brooklyn, so there are residents that are usually not very far away. They see this as a benefit because we're removing fossil fuel buses that sit and idle and park and pull in and out of that location most days of the week. And so this will have an immediate impact on air quality in that community.

And I think also as they begin to learn how this project will not only support First Student at our location in Brooklyn, but that that power will come back and supply that entire substation area, which includes a hospital, a couple of first responder areas, so that if there ever is a generalized grid impact, our hub will be able to support that entire community's electricity need for multiple hours and in some cases multiple days.

 

Jason Price:

Always fun to know things that are local in the neighborhood.

Electric vehicle technology is often viewed as challenging due to the impact of the existing grid infrastructure. And you touched upon some of that, but I'd like you to dive a little bit further given that you know that there's decision makers on the Power Perspectives right now. So what do you think utilities CEO should be thinking about when it comes to the potential for electric school buses to be part of the energy solution and a grid asset at the end of the day?

 

Kevin Matthews:

Yeah. I think fortunately we've had a great experience talking to utilities around the country about this and the school bus industry writ large is about 460,000 units in the United States. They are in every community in the United States and in sizable numbers. The average fleet is 10 school buses, but it ranged from as few as two or three to as many as 10,000 in New York City.

And what I think utilities are beginning to understand and see is this is something that's in our neighborhood, that is in our community that we can immediately address. I mean FedEx, Amazon, UPS, yes, they have lots of depots, they have lots of operations, but they're not in every community. The only potential fleet that is the US Postal Service, but they tend to be smaller vehicles. And so I think by looking at how we electrify school buses will probably address 80% of the issues and problems that utilities will confront as they look to electrify other fleets.

And so by starting with school buses, by taking a look at that, not only as a utility specific but as an industry specific, I think we can really look at how we can address a lot of these problems and concerns that are out there. And I think one of those big ones is how can the EVs actually support the grid, not only be a taker but be a provider back. And it's the project we're doing with Con Ed in New York, and we're doing about seven other pilots around the country with utilities on various V2X operations. It's really going to allow utilities to figure this out.

At the same time, you get a massive societal benefit. By electrifying school buses, those are the children who ride them. Children breathe about three times more air per liter than an adult does. So getting them off a fossil fuel emission bus provides great benefits. So it's one of those win-win situations for us all to work cooperatively together because we can all figure out how to solve one another's problems and advance a very important cause.

 

Jason Price:

Yeah, I agree. You mentioned Con Ed and utilities in general need to figure out. I want to pull on that thread for a moment. What was it like working with Con Edison? What was the role that they served? And basically what should other utility leaders be thinking about and learn from this experience?

 

Kevin Matthews:

Yeah, full credit to Con Edison, outstanding organization to work with. As I said, they started the process. They put out an RFI. They recognized there were going to be challenges electrifying fleets, there were going to be challenges around that. And so they asked for ideas. They said, "What can you bring to the table?" And it really allowed us to think outside the box. It allowed us to come up with things we had never thought about.

And so we put that project together and sent it back into Con Ed. They accepted it. And then that led to several months of negotiations and discussions about how this would work and what would be involved and how it would come together. And that was really terrific experience and has led to a very sound project that can be done timely but will also be well studied so that other entities can take a look at it and learn from it and begin to extrapolate and move from their toward it.

And that again is Con Ed's whole vision of this, is doing this project and doing it in a way that can be replicated so that others can take advantage of it if, it turns out to be cost-effective and we believe it will and move from there.

 

Jason Price:

Interesting.

Kevin, earlier I referred to it as a grid asset. I don't want to put words in your mouth. That may not be the case. Can you us understand what kind of an impact a fleet of school buses provide to the grid? How should we be thinking about this type of resource and how does Con Ed view it?

 

Kevin Matthews:

Yep. So as I mentioned, a fleet of school buses averages around 10 on a single lot, but you get into those urban areas and there's a lot we're looking at here in Brooklyn on Malta Street probably has upwards of 200 buses parked on it, fairly sizable imprint there. And so when you think about it on average, and this is average, there are a lot of variables that impact this, but on average, every 10 school buses represents about a megawatt of energy storage both up and down on the grid. And so that's not insignificant when you think about that.

So how do you design a system that can charge the bus cost-effectively, not only for the operator but for the utility? And that's what we're looking at here, looking at how long our buses are parked and so that we can charge at a very slow manageable rate that doesn't put a big burden or an increased burden, let's say, on the grid that already exist. That's an important thing to learn. It's how software and how other types of management tools can reduce the amount of electricity needed but still meet the state of charge that's required when the buses need to roll out.

Alternatively, how can we take that power back out of the batteries, that energy, and put it back to the grid and use it in productive ways for the utility? And again, school buses really are ideal for that setup because we're sitting 82% hours of the year. And when you look at that downtime, it's often starting around four o'clock in the afternoon when we're beginning to see the uptick on grid demand. And then there in summers, significant portion of our fleet is parked all summer long for 24/7. So really great ways that the school bus can improve the grid, support the grid, and not just be a taker of energy from it.

 

Jason Price:

You were describing the complexity of the infrastructure and everything in the continent territory is underground, so it just makes it that much more complicated. And you described the gas piping too, so there's a lot of infrastructure complexities. But there's also other competing interests that weigh on any kind of decision, especially a regulatory decision because it's not just in the control of Con Ed in terms of who's going to pay for it and the unknowns and the risk and everything. So could you talk about that? I'd love to understand, and I think our audience would appreciate as well, just sort of the overall complexity and competing interests and tensions that come from going through an exercise like this.

 

Kevin Matthews:

Yeah, thanks for that. First, when we talk about infrastructure, this is where I think First Student is by far a leader. We have developed a system we call First Charge. That is a system that is 100% above-ground, so no trenching is required. We keep everything above ground so that it's more cost-effective. On average, it costs about 30% less to install First Charge than traditional trenching of systems and put in the ground. But beyond that, it's a flexible system. So it's designed for anywhere from 10 to 48 school buses. And so we can do it like a Lego block system. As more buses come in, just keep adding more blocks to it. And those blocks are basically Jersey barriers or K-Rails as some people call them that you see along interstate highways. We put those on the parking lot. We attach our charging stations directly to the top of them. And we run the conduit for both the power and the telecom directly behind those Jersey barriers that then tie into each charging station.

We have a power cube that we bring to the location that has all the power electronics. And that sits and ties in directly to the utility connection and manages all of those aspects. The good thing about this system, not only is it flexible, not only is at lower cost is it's built in an ISO certified facility. And so everything is tested before it's shipped to the location, and that really reduces the amount of commissioning time and issues around interoperability that come up. So we're quite proud of our First Charge system and are now supplying that to other school bus operators as well as other medium and heavy duty fleet operators.

But you do still have challenges. Don't want to sit here that everything just goes smoothly every day. As I mentioned, interoperability is our biggest struggle at this point in time. The bus has its software. The charging station has its software. Power electronics has it. Getting all of those to communicate well and do the handshake so that charging occurs when it's supposed to can still be a significant challenge.

And so we're really pushing not only the school bus industry, but others to really focus on this interoperability issue and potentially create centers where this can be tested and solved so that we're not struggling once the buses arrive and the charging stations spending weeks trying to just make the bus charge. And we're making great progress there, but still more needs to be done.

 

Jason Price:

Yeah, no doubt. Yeah.

 

Kevin Matthews:

Regulatory, I think the biggest issue we have is permitting. And that's not just related to EVs. Just getting permits from any municipality, any AHJ continues to be a challenge and slows projects down. And we would love to find a way to streamline the process so we can get permits and get to work.

 

Jason Price:

Interesting. What comes next? We're talking about expanding the hub, serving the community, what does that look like? What comes next with this project?

 

Kevin Matthews:

Yeah, what next is, we would love to hear from more utilities that want to figure out how to integrate electric school buses or the electrification of fleets into their service territory and want to look at these game-changing ideas.

We're clearly open to doing those. And the great thing about working with First Student is, and I have to admit I have one of the best jobs in the United States, is we have a dedicated team of about 25 employees that all we do is electric school buses. That includes four full-time electrical engineers. So you're not going to find another school bus operator that has the depth and breadth that we have. So we would really like to find a way to work with you.

And look, even if we don't have school buses in your territory, I wish we had school buses everywhere but it doesn't work that way, we can still come in and consult with you, have those discussions, look at ideas, and figure out that best path forward. Because we view every electric school bus that's deployed successfully as a win. That's what's going to drive down cost, and that's what's going to be better for all of us. And like I said, be better for the kids. That's what it's all about.

 

Jason Price:

Yeah. I can say as a former passenger of a school bus, I'm sure I would've benefited as well. So thank you for that and my future kids will thank you as well.

 

Kevin Matthews:

That's our goal.

 

Jason Price:

So Kevin, at this point we'd like to pause. We're going to give you the final word, but we'd like to pause and go to what we call the lightning round, which gives us an opportunity to learn a little bit more about you, the person, rather than you, the professional. So I'm going to throw a bunch of questions at you and we ask you to keep your answer short, one word or phrase or sentence. So are you ready?

 

Kevin Matthews:

I'm ready. Let's do it.

 

Jason Price:

Okay. School buses had me thinking. So what was your favorite school lunch growing up?

 

Kevin Matthews:

Pizza.

 

Jason Price:

What book, movie or piece of media would you take with you to a deserted island?

 

Kevin Matthews:

That's always good, To Kill A Mockingbird, both the book and the movie.

 

Jason Price:

Okay. Who were your role models growing up and who are they now?

 

Kevin Matthews:

Growing up, my dad. Can't say enough about him. A United Methodist minister in the South who led as they called him a servant leader. He was great. And now I really look to those pioneering electrification people. Tom Gage has been a mentor to mine and Willett Kempton at the University of Delaware on V2G. Just great folks who've advanced the industry very far.

 

Jason Price:

Kevin, we're collecting lightning round questions from past podcast guests to ask future guests. So this one comes from Aaron Choo of National Grid. He passed on the question, what do you think the energy transition will look like in 10 years? Will we still be transitioning?

 

Kevin Matthews:

I think in 10 years a lot of the fleet electrification issues will be resolved, and I think it'll be a normal part of life in that. And I think we will have figured out how the fleets help solve grid issues and the energy transition. But yes, I believe we will still be going through a massive transition. There is so much to be done and what AI is potentially bringing to us in terms of energy consumption will still push us further along.

 

Jason Price:

Okay, now it's your turn. What lightning round question do you want to challenge a future guest to answer? And of course it can be topical and related to energy or it can be off the wall question.

 

Kevin Matthews:

I'll keep it to energy. It's really what will the impact be of artificial intelligence to the energy world, particularly generation and transmission? How are we going to be able to address that as it continues to become a rapidly increasing issue?

 

Jason Price:

Great. And I feel like I know the answer to the next one, the last question, but I'll ask it anyways. What are you most passionate about?

 

Kevin Matthews:

Yeah, it's electric school buses. It's the nerdiest question answer probably ever. But this is absolutely incredible what we're doing at First Student. And I'm passionate about this personally, but I'm also passionate about the team at First Student. I cannot say enough about them. There's not a single one of them that views this as a job. They all view this as a mission. And I am so proud and so passionate to support them and the efforts we're doing. Really happy to be where I am in the world today.

 

Jason Price:

Fantastic, Kevin. And as promised, you now get to impart the final thoughts to our listeners and once again, recognizing it's people at the utilities similar to Con Edison that are listening in today. So what is the key message you want to offer to our audience about the next steps they should take after hearing our conversation today?

 

Kevin Matthews:

I think they should sit down with school bus operators in their territories, learn what those school districts want to do in terms of electrifying their fleet and how best they can support that effort going forward and how best they can take advantage of that. It could be simple as doing make-ready programs, having programs that help pay for infrastructure, but I really think that there are a lot of school districts out there, a lot of school bus operators similar to First Student that want to take this journey and really want to be a partner with their utility.

 

Jason Price:

Excellent. Fantastic. Really appreciate your insight and really admire the passion you brought today. So I want to thank you and I'm sure that our listeners will have comments, questions, and follow up on this important conversation.

And as always, we invite them to leave those in the comments section of the Energy Central post of this episode. So when we do see notes, we'll forward them your way, Kevin, but we also encourage you to hop into the conversation and keep it going. So until then though, we just want to thank you for sharing your insights with us on today's episode of the podcast.

 

Kevin Matthews:

Well, thank you very much for having me and helping to educate everybody on what we're doing on the transition here and the transition writ large. These are very important conversations. So thanks for taking the time with us today.

 

Jason Price:

You bet. And you can always reach Kevin through the Energy Central platform where he welcomes your questions and comments.

And we also want to give a shout out of thanks to the podcast sponsors that made today's episode possible. Thanks to West Monroe. West Monroe is a leading partner for the nation's largest electric gas and water utilities. Working together to drive grid modernization, clean energy and workforce transformation, West Monroe's comprehensive services are designed to support utilities in advancing their digital transformation, building resilient operations, securing federal funding, and providing regulatory advisory support.

With a multidisciplinary team of experts, West Monroe offers a holistic approach that addresses the challenges of the grid today and provides innovative solutions for a sustainable future.

Once again, I'm your host Jason Price. Plug in and stay fully charged in the discussion by hopping into the community at energycentral.com. And we'll see you next time at the Energy Central Power Perspectives podcast.

About Energy Central Podcasts

Power Perspectives features conversations with thought leaders in the utility sector. At least twice monthly, we connect with an Energy Central Power Industry Network community member to discuss compelling topics that impact professionals who work in the power industry. Some podcasts may be a continuation of thought-provoking posts or discussions started in the community or with an industry leader that is interested in sharing their expertise and doing a deeper dive into hot topics or issues relevant to the industry.

Power Perspectives is the premiere podcast series from Energy Central, a Power Industry Network of Communities built specifically for professionals in the electric power industry and a place where professionals can share, learn, and connect in a collaborative environment. Supported by leading industry organizations, our mission is to help global power industry professionals work better. Since 1995, we’ve been a trusted news and information source for professionals working in the power industry, and today our managed communities are a place for lively discussions, debates, and analysis to take place. If you’re not yet a member, visit www.EnergyCentral.com to register for free and join over 200,000 of your peers working in the power industry.

Power Perspectives is hosted by Jason Price, Community Ambassador of Energy Central. Jason is a Business Development Executive at West Monroe, working in the East Coast Energy and Utilities Group. Jason is joined in the podcast booth by the producer of the podcast, Matt Chester, who is also the Community Manager of Energy Central and energy analyst/independent consultant in energy policy, markets, and technology.  

If you want to be a guest on a future episode of Power Perspectives, let us know! We’ll be pulling guests from our community members who submit engaging content that gets our community talking, and perhaps that next guest will be you! Likewise, if you see an article submitted by a fellow Energy Central community member that you’d like to see broken down in more detail in a conversation, feel free to send us a note to nominate them.  For more information, contact us at [email protected]. Podcast interviews are free for Expert Members and professionals who work for a utility.  We have package offers available for solution providers and vendors. 

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